Covid

[WOTR]

That's just the thing, I don't think you can predict it as your wheelie, and your decision to live your life without concessions to covid fear, shows, both things I wouldn't, and didn't, do.

That is the funny thing. I think I told you that my great aunt who was very sick with cancer was still at home and passed away around Christmas "from covid" (it was from cancer- but the covid was the final nail saving her some ugly end days suffering.) Because she was at home, she could decide what to follow and what not to (unlike my grandmother who was in a retirement home and could not chose. But she also made it clear that she would rather take her chances if given the choice and knowing the risks.)

Anyhow, I'm sure my great aunt would have got vaxxed. But she got covid because she knew the risks, and decided that playing "uno" and visiting friends and family was worth it. She had probably a dozen or two people through her front door each week and hugged each one. I think I learned from her to say "fuck it". OK, she would never use that language and would probably be disappointed to see me using it...

Was she a daredevil. Or did she hold different values that had life preservation at all costs a little further down? Would you have been willing to tell her that she should hide in her basement after surviving those decades of challenges and that she was not capable of determining what her risk was? Would you try to guilt trip her telling her that it is not just her life, but the lives of her friends she was risking. Would you demand she die alone like my grandmother was forced to do?

*I have made "concessions." when people were sick at work (despite my not legally being a close contact) I did avoid others. I still worked (it was an expectation.) But I didn't see my mother, and I didn't even go to stores for a couple weeks. Also, I don't know if I have ever said this on the board. While I was making fun of it here and in my real life, I ordered a manual resuscitator bag at the start while they were saying they were running out of spots in the hospital. Not for me. For family, if needed. But I still saw people even while I waited for it in the mail...

[K_Dubb]

Funny you should type that out. As of today, I am a proud anti-vaxxer. I was not yesterday. But they changed the meaning in the Miriam Webster dictionary overnight to now include opposition to LAWS that mandate vaccinations. I told another guy at work today that as of this moment, (and thanks to Miriam Webster) I am now living my life as a proud anti-vaxxer.

I believe when you typed that yesterday, I was not an anti-vaxxer. Today you would be correct. 

Haha by that standard I am an anti-vaxxer, too, like most Americans.

[Master Trollda]

If I pay for treating my health in such a cavalier fashion, I will be sure to let you know.

No you wouldn’t. You’d rationalize, make excuses and claim they’re unrelated, etc.

[K_Dubb]

Sweden infection rate per capita per day(606/1,000,000) = 0.0606%
Denmark infection rate per capita per day(115/1,000,000) = 0.0115%
Finland infection rate per capita per day(62/1,000,000) = 0.0062%
Norway infection rate per capita per day(112/1,000,000) = 0.0112%

Nautical Shore how "significant" those statistical deviations are between the "control" group and the three "test countries," I am obviously stretching the limits of my ability with "the maths."

A population density map of the area:

(It's an older code, but it checks out... from 2009 but it is probably the same, as far as statistics go I imagine)

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.TOTL?end=2019&locations=SE-DK-NO-FI&start=2019&view=bar
From the above link, 2019 population info:

Sweden 10,278,887
Denmark 5,814,422
Finland 5,521,606
Norway 5,347,896

Again, somewhat dated information, but I imagine the population difference from 2019 to 2021 is statistically insignificant.

I am Nautical Shore what to make of all this information when taken with that wonderful Lancet article you so thoughtfully provided.

I would say that a sample size of ~25 million, with a 40% "control" group seems decent sized.  It is interesting to note that there only seem to be two densely populated cities in the sample however... One in Denmark, the other in Sweden.  I also note that Sweden has approximately twice the population of each of its neighbors, most of them concentrated into one small area.

It is certainly "data" but if I were setting up an experiment from which to draw valid conclusions this seems like an awfully klunky set-up.  Surely the recognized established medical community could come up with a better experiment?

Once again, I am Nautical Shore about all of this, but I imagine that this is an epidemiologists wet dream for a case study!  Probably YEARS of billable hours and study to determine WTAF really was going on.

I still don't feel like wearing a pointy wizard/dunce cap about it.  My little corner of the world has seen TWO cases, one my brother and the other and ancient dude up the street.  Neither died, I still do not know (personally) of anyone who has actually died from this Black Plague...

I remain unconvinced, and still celebrate that things are about to "open up."  But as a Proud Missourian, you have to SHOW ME;  I will believe the "we're open" sign when I actually see it, which has not yet happened.  Fingers crossed that some idiot doesn't shit the bed and we have to double the "15 days to stop the spread," horse-hockey from a year or more ago...

I can tell you what is being whispered in Norway, where the daily death chart stops at 30 or so while Sweden's goes up to 500.  It is said that the FUCKING SWEDES cynically sacrificed their elders on the altar of commerce, JUST LIKE THEY DID IN WWII WHEN THEY SOLD IRON ORE TO FUCKING HITLER THOSE MERCENARY BASTARDS!!!

I am pretty skeptical of lockdowns, too, especially when you look at, say, Sweden vs. the nannying English, and it is true that somewhere around 75% of dead Swedes were either in nursing homes or in a state of decrepitude sufficient to require in-home care and probably would have croaked sooner rather than later, but such is my burning hatred for the whole cold-hearted Svea people (and the Goths and the Vandals, too, while I'm at it) that I would happily FUCK THEM ALL but only the hot ones.

#FUCKTHESWEDES!!!!

[K_Dubb]

Would you have been willing to tell her that she should hide in her basement after surviving those decades of challenges and that she was not capable of determining what her risk was? Would you try to guilt trip her telling her that it is not just her life, but the lives of her friends she was risking. Would you demand she die alone like my grandmother was forced to do?

Of course I would not.  I think the old people waving out the windows of the nursing homes is one of the saddest things I have seen.  That was unspeakably cruel.

[K_Dubb]

No you wouldn’t. You’d rationalize, make excuses and claim they’re unrelated, etc.

I would too, I told you all about the fever I had, in excruciating detail!  Six hours freezing and sweating and aching all over!!!

[K_Dubb]

See? There is the irony of this whole thing. I would take you to the beach... But you would probably refuse to go with me if I were not vaxxed. 

Hell yes I would go, my folks are safe, that is all I cared about.  I will go to my Trumpy uncle's barbecue this summer, too, that we skipped last year, though he posts all that antivaxxing shizzle day in and day out and won't let a needle within a mile of him.

It's funny my aunt ignored him and got it anyway hahaha

[WOTR]

In my observation the strongest predictor of whether someone will get the vaxx is their politics, which shows perfectly how effed up this whole situation is.

... but know that nobody will take me to the beach unless I get it.

Is it the politics? I have another theory. Just like people who continued to see others. It is claimed to be a "left / right" thing. But I believe that far more republicans the democrats work at jobs where they have to show up. Plumber, mechanic- you name it. This includes me. I could have worked from home at the start, but chose to go in every day because our employees had to be in every day...

Anyhow, more Democrats could work from home. Accountants, teachers, administrators. Working from home, it is very easy to say "I am being good and not seeing people." when you show up at the office your realize the stupidity of a system that tells you that the risk to your health to show up with 30 other guys each day is acceptable because it helps the economy and is "essential." But you are not allowed to see your mother or even to go out for a beer with the guy you worked beside all day because, well... That is too risky.

You start to realize the insanity and say "fuck them." and live your life. I may sound reckless, but cards this weekeind is with my mother and uncles and aunts on one side and with a couple of coworkers (I am in meetings and in offices with them all day all week. If the government wants to tell me that it is "risky" to play cards, then they should shut down our work site. But then "essential" work would not get done. So I will play my cards.)

Anyhow, yes. It is somewhat left/right. But I think it is also your lived experience over the last year. I know people who worked from home and are still in their basement bunker. I'm sure they will are already vaccinated, and I know a few who have told me that they will not visit with the "unvaxxed." I have told them that I agree 100% with their choice. They gave up a year and a half out of fear- and it would not be right to have that for nothing and invite any risk by seeing somebody such as myself. (I said it in sincerity.)

[WOTR]

Of course I would not.  I think the old people waving out the windows of the nursing homes is one of the saddest things I have seen.  That was unspeakably cruel.

Well, we agree on that. But the alternative was more dead people. I wanted homes to be split. One for those who didn't have family / didn't want the risk. It would be 100% locked down as it is unfair to subject them to risks. One for those who wanted to see family. Yeah, still some restrictions- but open to relations. More risk, more death, but a their choice.

Well, it is the past. But I agree with you. Cruel to the point of elder abuse. I would have left for months and lived in an almost abandoned hotel if I were in one of those places (and capable of caring for myself.) I would imagine that rates were depressed for awhile.

[K_Dubb]

Is it the politics? I have another theory. Just like people who continued to see others. It is claimed to be a "left / right" thing. But I believe that far more republicans the democrats work at jobs where they have to show up. Plumber, mechanic- you name it. This includes me. I could have worked from home at the start, but chose to go in every day because our employees had to be in every day...

Yes, you would think people in that situation would be first or at least second in line -- as essential workers were deemed to be here, and as makes sense if vaccines work how they're supposed to -- but when Walks asked I was the only one on here who'd been poked.  You are a suspicious lot.

I wonder what would have happened if Trump had been around to promote the vaccine he'd spent a shitton to develop.  I think things would be different somehow.

[WOTR]

Yes, you would think people in that situation would be first or at least second in line -- as essential workers were deemed to be here, and as makes sense if vaccines work how they're supposed to -- but when Walks asked I was the only one on here who'd been poked.  You are a suspicious lot.

I wonder what would have happened if Trump had been around to promote the vaccine he'd spent a shitton to develop.  I think things would be different somehow.

I will agree with your Trump comment. I suppose if you would have voted for him, we might know the answer... I don't know if you recall- but when Trump was talking about vaccines at the beginning, the democrats were refusing them as unsafe.

I know, it is 1984, and that little fact has been sent down memory hole. Here is a video of Trump calling on Biden to stop promoting his "anti vaccine theories." When Trump first announced vaccines, Biden (and other democrats) told the public that they would not trust them because Trump was involved.

From a nice, mainstream source from you I present MSN "2020 Democratic vice presidential nominee Kamala Harris this weekend overtly undermined any COVID-19 vaccine rolled out by the Trump administration in the fall. She told CNN Sunday she didn't "trust" the White House incumbent."

""We cannot allow a repeat of Trump’s testing and personal protective equipment fiascos when it comes to a COVID-19 vaccine," (Harris and Biden) wrote." And there was a bunch of other comments. My guess is if Trump were still in, the Republicans would be lined up for vaccinations while the democrats continued to question it's safety under Trump's FDA.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-and-harris-preemptively-sow-doubt-on-trump-vaccine-announcement/ar-BB18QXKj

[WOTR]

Yes, you would think people in that situation would be first or at least second in line

Why? If you have lived with it for a year and the novelty of the fear has worn not only thin, but worn itself completely out? I have said a few times, my only fear is spreading it to others. If they are afraid, get the vax. I have likely already had Covid, around 10% of my employees have tested positive (and more likely had it early on.)

The most likely to be vaccinated are those who are still fearful. Cue the people sheltering in place, working from home, and shopping online. (Now for my dig: Cue the typical liberal.) Not the clerk at Costco who has had upward of 10,000 face to face interactions over the last year and a half. That fucker ain't scared anymore. For that person, Covid was over months ago- only the theater of masks remains.

[K_Dubb]

Why? If you have lived with it for a year and the novelty of the fear has worn not only thin, but worn itself completely out? I have said a few times, my only fear is spreading it to others. If they are afraid, get the vax. I have likely already had Covid, around 10% of my employees have tested positive (and more likely had it early on.)

The most likely to be vaccinated are those who are still fearful. Cue the people sheltering in place, working from home, and shopping online. (Now for my dig: Cue the typical liberal.) Not the clerk at Costco who has had upward of 10,000 face to face interactions over the last year and a half. That fucker ain't scared anymore. For that person, Covid was over months ago- only the theater of masks remains.

I don't know; I may be extrapolating too much from my own outlook but I am not sure people under, say, 60 or so are getting vaxxed out of fear for their personal health.  We have known for quite a while who is at risk, and, if I lived a long ways away and didn't see my folks regularly, my life for the past year would have been very different.  As it is, I have a brother and sisters who sit at home, far away, skyping in comfort but ready to blame me if anything happened to them.

I think for a lot of us it is more a sense of civic duty, that the more people who aren't wandering around susceptible to catching and spreading it, the sooner things can get back to normal.  You fundamentally don't trust the people in charge to put things back to normal, and every directive from them rankles, so of course you don't see the point to it all.  It is all politics.

[Master Trollda]

I don't know; I may be extrapolating too much from my own outlook but I am not sure people under, say, 60 or so are getting vaxxed out of fear for their personal health.  We have known for quite a while who is at risk, and, if I lived a long ways away and didn't see my folks regularly, my life for the past year would have been very different.  As it is, I have a brother and sisters who sit at home, far away, skyping in comfort but ready to blame me if anything happened to them.

I think for a lot of us it is more a sense of civic duty, that the more people who aren't wandering around susceptible to catching and spreading it, the sooner things can get back to normal.  You fundamentally don't trust the people in charge to put things back to normal, and every directive from them rankles, so of course you don't see the point to it all.  It is all politics.

He says, conveniently ignoring the mutation problem. It is obviously all politics to you.

[K_Dubb]

He says, conveniently ignoring the mutation problem. It is obviously all politics to you.

What mutation problem?  If I need another shot next year, I'll get it, you giant pussy.  Unless you mean the mutating nanobots rampaging through my balls, nothing I can do about that now